Adam P. Knave: Welcome, good friends, to a very special “Hooray for Comics”! We're doing this up right this time, and D.J. “The Fresh Prince of Footnote-Air” Kirkbride and I will be discussing Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns. It is, I have to note, the first in a planned three-part series looking at Miller's take on Batman through the decades. But we start at the best starting place. Which! Is! Here!

D.J. Kirkbride: Bueno! And, if you haven't read this book yet (really? you haven't?) then be forewarned, because I'm not going to hold back the spoilers if the mood strikes me.

APK: Totally! We're gonna dissect this book. Of course, it is a book that has been discussed to death so bear with us, because this will focus on some different aspects than most reviews and discussions have in the past, I feel.

DJK: Such as... Bruce Wayne starts the book out sporting a mustache. Most controversial choice Frank Miller has ever made?

APK: One of them! Female Robin? Whatever. Lip Worm for the Waynester? SHOCKING! But I do have to say that thinking about it I came to an odd theory of Mustached Wayne.

DJK: Bring it on, soldier.

APK: All right. Gordon always had a mustache. When we see Wayne with it, it symbolizes, I think, his slide into decadence and loss of greatness. Which, admittedly is an odd thing for something as powerful as a mustache to represent but there you go. But what is Miller saying about Gordon then? Is he ineffectual in Miller's eye? Should we draw a parallel there based solely on grooming? Would Gordon be SUPERHUMAN if he only shaved?

DJK: Holy crap. Reverse Samson for the upper lip area. This is not only plausible -- it's likely. Already, a new observation about this oft-observed book.

APK: So you think I may be onto something here? What's your take on the mouth bristle?

DJK: I also kind of thought it was a Gordon-related thing. Surrogate father, or, I guess, older bro type stuff or something. But I can go on about facial hair all night. And probably shouldn't. How would you boil down a synopsis’s for The Dark Knight Returns with Batman-like bone crunching efficiency?

APK: Without resorting to discussing hair? Hmmm. It's Batman brought down to his hardest Mike Hammer noir roots and used as a cure for the problems Miller saw with the 80's. Combating the corruption and media issues of the time with pure old school power: horses, fists, gumption, and a tank.

DJK: That about sums it up. In this book, Batman is a 55-ish-year-old guy who has been retired for ten years since the death of Jason Todd, the second Robin. All of earth’s superheroes have quit, split, or are working secretly in their own ways. Then... old man Bruce starts tripping out that the BAT wants him back. Suddenly, he is walking around naked and realizes his mustache is gone. Batman is reborn. NAKED and SHORN.

APK: Hair factors DEEPLY into this book, doesn't it? Batman comes back only when Wayne shaves. And then there's Harvey Dent. What'd ya' think about that?

DJK: That was a great part of the book. Harvey Dent, one of Batman's most tragic foes, is finally cured (with some heavy dollar donations from Bruce Wayne). The scared half of his face is fixed, and he looks to the world like the handsome son of a gun he was before becoming Two-Face... until he looks in the mirror. That storyline was awesome. Harvey now sees one entirely scarred face and is back with the crime. Chilling stuff.

APK: Yeah, the fixing of his face showed him that the monster is inside him and always will be. But please to be noting, sir, that he is UTTERLY BALD. See the steps? Gordon, near retirement and impotent in some ways: Mustache. Wayne, growing back into his own power and sense of self: Shaved 'stache off. Two-Face, comes into his own being fully and more twisted and powerful than ever before: HAIRLESS!

DJK: Whoa. I thought Miller just didn't like drawing hair, but you might be on to something here.

APK: I can, in fact, I think, describe the whole book in terms of hair. And it is all due to your comments about the Bat'stache that triggered it.

DJK: Explain, please. I need to know this. With every fiber of my being!

APK: All right! Catwoman and Green Arrow: Both have very long hair and are at weak points in their lives trying to scrape by and remember that they once were. The Joker's hair hasn't changed; he's stuck where he was so he goes out in a desperate gambit unchanged! The new robin and the new Commish -- both have similar hair that is short but not too short and leads in the front. Both characters are throwbacks to the way things WERE. Early days of Batman the police didn't trust him. Early days of Dick Grayson as Robin, when he was like Carrie.

DJK: And also, as a female, Carrie would probably shave her legs anyway, making her a less creepy candidate for Robin than poor Dick Grayson, who must've felt at least a little awkward about that after a while.

APK: Yah, the short pants had to have left their mental scars on Dick. Maybe that's why Bruce mentions that he hasn't heard from him in years. And maybe it's why Jason died? Maybe?

DJK: A male leg shaving accident? Maybe. Nah, this was done after the "A Death in the Family" storyline in the regular Batman comics where the Joker killed Jason Todd, wasn't it?

APK: Nope. The Dark Knight Returns was 1986. “A Death in the Family” was ’88.

DJK: Ah... wacky! That's what I get for reading this a few years after the fact. And I hadn't read it in maybe a few years since checking it out again for this. It holds up for me, but it's a pretty mean, ugly Batman adventure, isn't it?

APK: Yeah, it is, but that's why it worked for me. I don't like crushing grim and grit all the time, but Batman also shouldn't be fighting aliens and running around with Bat-Mite too much. Miller went damned far in one direction over the other, and it worked wonderfully as a barometer for where you can go. Plus it has one of the best lines ever.

DJK: Alfred saying, "Master Bruce, whatever happened to your mustache?"

APK: "There's nothing wrong with you that I can't fix with my hands."

DJK: Yes, that line is badass and classic Miller. I love how he keeps pointing out that Bruce is too old and slow sometimes to be doing what he's doing... so he has to fight craftier and sometimes dirtier. Get in there with his old man hands.

APK: But the mustache line is a close second. A bat ate it. Really that's the scene we didn't get to see. That one big freaky glowing eye'd bat? Ate it right off his face.

DJK: Ha ha! Maybe in the director's cut...

APK: "Master Bruce what happened to your mustache?" "A bat ate it. A bat that knows that criminals are a cowardly, suspicious lot that don't fear mustaches. Yes, Alfred that means you. They don't fear you." "But Master Bruce..." "There's nothing wrong with you that I can't fix with my RAZOR."

DJK: Even the classics can be perfected it seems!

APK: Hahaha well, [DC Comics President] Paul Levitz called for the scene to be cut. He has a bushy 'stache, remember.

DJK: That's true. He was offended. This book surely offended some folks. I remember reading an interview with late great Batman creator Bob Kane where he said he didn't "get" Frank Miller and specifically mentioned the bad lady/guy with he swastikas on her breasts...

APK: Wait, really? Bob Kane, the man who had Batman shooting people with a gun, didn't like swastika pasties? She was a bad guy! How much badder can you get than swastika pasties? I thought it made sense.

DJK: This book is accepted as a classic now, but I wish I was reading "grown up" comics like this when it first came out to see the “outrage” from certain folks first hand.

APK: I was reading comics when this came out. I was reading Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew, though, mind you.

DJK: I was reading, too, but I didn't actually end up reading this until years after it came out. It seemed scary to me, and the art just turned me off. Though I kind of dig the way it tells the story now, it's really some fugly art. Effective and good in its style, but... fucking ugly.

APK: Really? I adore it! What about it is fugly to you?

DJK: The style. It's just ugly. It also changes throughout the book. The later pages seem more rushed than the first, but it's a style that works. I've always found Frank Millers art to be ugly. Again, ugly doesn't equal bad. The line work and character designs just ain't pretty.

APK: Huh! Interesting. I love the roughness of it, the way it isn't slick and careful but emotional and pure. There's a power that that just makes me smile. I've always liked Miller's art for that, though. Like Mignola, in a lot of ways.

DJK: It tells the story well, and the acting and shots are great, but the characters themselves are all scary looking -- especially to me when I was a kid. It all works for the story, though. And how about the story? Though it's obviously dated in some ways, it'd just take a few tweaks here and there to fit right in to present day. Unfortunately.

APK: Yeah, it would. The story was simple, really. Almost too simple, and that is part of why it worked. It's very A to B to C. There's not much gray in it, really. What do you think of this take on Bats himself?

DJK: I'm all for different takes on Batman, too. From this to Adam West... I wouldn't want Miller's Batman to be the only version I could read about, but it really works for this world Miller created. He's drill sergeant Batman, but he's got a soft side, which was really amusing with some of the Robin scenes. I dig gruff badass Batman.

APK: Is story in a world Miller invented or did he simply reflect the world he saw and placed a Batman in it that fit that world and dealt with it the only way he could? I mean, this will become a deeper theme as we get to parts two and three some day... but still.

DJK: It's definitely a reflection on the world Miller was seeing, but he created it. I mean, I look at this (and the subsequent works) as Miller's Gotham City and all of that. The "Millerverse" as I've read around the interwebs. When he writes Batman (or Superman or Gordon or the Joker), they don't seem like how I usually think of them. They're HIS versions. Which is legit in his stories and always entertaining to me.

APK: Totally in agreement there. They are his own take, but it feels to me like he reflects and then places more than forces his take into a thing. Which says a lot of bad stuff about us in the ‘80s.

DJK: Yeah. I had my little kid head up my little kid ass back then, but looking back, those were some fucked up times... If only we had Batman on horseback to stir shit up.

APK: Hahahaha yeah! That would've rocked. And been utterly horrible! He takes over, pretty much! If that really happened? I don't know that we'd be on his side.

DJK: That's true. This book isn't cut and dry. He does fucked up shit. It's from his POV, so I side with him a lot, but, honestly, the thing I don't like about the book, even though it works for the story from Batman’s angle, is Miller's take on Superman.

APK: I don't agree with it either, but I understand it. I mean he's an ultimately powerful alien who only really is on our side because he decides to be. At a certain point that good boy thing can be abused, and his own fears can be used against him. I mean, isn't that the biggest fear with Superman? And isn't the Government part of the bad guy system here in some ways?

DJK: Yes. And it does work for the context of the story, too, but I just don't like Superman being such a patsy. There's a difference between upholding the law and doing dirty work for powerful retards, you know? But, it works for the story, and that wink at the end almost makes it all better to me... And, part of me wish the story had just ended with that and the brief glimpse of Bruce and his kids rebuilding the cave.

APK: Yah. But come on! That wink says it all! Superman was a patsy because he thought it was the right thing to do even though he knew it wasn't. He just couldn't see the way to an alternative so he did the best he could. And when Bruce gave him the alternative he took it! YAY! Also, I have to mention? Superman's hair until the end? Exaggerated! The spit curl is almost grotesque. A sign that he is not only harkening back to the early concept (see Robin and the new Commish) but also gone too far in his attempts. But at the end the hair is normal looking and possibly a bit stylish in a way, a symbol of new hope!

DJK: Yeah, his hair is nuts through lots of it. And that's why I'm saying I like the wink. I do. I was referring to the sequel in terms of wishing the whole story ended with Bruce and the gang in the cave.

APK: Oh, well, the sequel is a different discussion! And be prepared I WILL break it down by hair again.

DJK: Oh, I know! I was getting ahead of myself. And the sequel is retardedly awesome, and that's all I'll say for now, but The Dark Knight Returns is GENUINELY awesome. It really holds up. It's a dense read, the way it's laid out, but it moves quickly. It's a goddamn hoot, really.

APK: I agree! So, any final thoughts -- hair based or otherwise?

DJK: Final thoughts? It's a big ol' mean, messy work with a whole lot of heart and some badass badassary. What about you?

APK: It's a great benchmark for the field. One that sadly became a thing to be copied and not learned from. Regardless, though -- this thing rocked then, and it still rocks. Like a rocking thing that rocks rockingly.

DJK: Indeed. It can't be blamed for its imitators. It's awesome in its own right. A fine read.